Hatonn Channeling on Hell & Repeating Octaves

Hatonn - November 17, 1979

I am again with this instrument. I am Hatonn. May we greet the one known as S, and welcome him to our gathering. We will continue through this instrument. As we were saying, there are planets which have no more ability to extricate themselves from a condition of complete terror. They are so frightened that in their soul condition the souls cling to each other with such intensity that they consist of an impenetrable knot of fear, each feeling completely separated from the other and from the Creator. Your planet is not down that road, yet. There are many among your peoples who are very positive. There is no chance at this time that your planet would become one of these. Furthermore, among our ranks there are those whose task it is to release planetary entities such as these from their terror, so that they will let go of each other and be able to be led away to what you would call a hospital for spiritual rest, until they are able to once again take up the task that awaits us all; that of evolving into the original Thought from which we spring.

This is the closest to a hell that exists, to our knowledge, in any of your universes. We, however, are not perfect nor is our information complete. We simply have seen somewhat more than have you. But it is our understanding that the evolutionary process continues onward grade by grade, or octave by octave, and at the end of each grade those who are able proceed to the next. Those who are not able repeat that octave or existence until they have learned the lessons of that existence. Thus, the terms heaven and hell are quite subjective. And what is heaven to you would not seem so to us. And what is heaven to us would be incomprehensible, likewise, to you. For each of us have our own, shall we say, psychological makeup which has been developed through many eons of development in the spirit.

I thought it would be interesting to open a discussion on this channeling I came across today while researching about the concept of a “knot of fear.” I came across this and thought it was interesting. Those who can move on to the next octave, do so once they have proceeded through the seventh density. But some have to repeat that particular octave of existence until the lessons are learned? Or did they just get the concept of density and octave mixed up, because it almost seems like this statement regarding grades could also refer to the densities. But it does says octaves, so I’m wondering, since this octave’s logos gave it the most opportunities to polarize in third density, that maybe the learning is more difficult some how as a result? Why would one ever need to repeat an entire octave?

Law of One 90.18
There seems to have been created by this Logos (to me anyway) a large percentage of entities whose distortion was toward warfare, in that we had the Maldek and the Mars experience and now Earth. It seems that Venus was the exception to what we could almost call the rule of warfare. Is this correct? And was this envisioned and planned into the construction of the archetypical mind—possibly not with respect particularly to warfare as we have experienced it but to the extreme action to polarization in consciousness?

I am Ra. It is correct that the Logos designed Its experiment to attempt to achieve the greatest possible opportunities for polarization in third density. It is incorrect that warfare of the types specific to your experiences was planned by the Logos. This form of expression of hostility is an interesting result which is apparently concomitant with the tool-making ability. The choice of the Logos to use the life-form with the grasping thumb is the decision to which this type of warfare may be traced.

I am curious to know what everyone thinks about this topic.

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Are you sure they’re attempting to follow Ra’s terminology here?

It sounds like they mean octave within a density. Or just octave’s general meaning of interval.

Like if you don’t pass a year of school, they want you to keep repeating that year of school until you get it. They even say “grade by grade” to clarify.

Although perhaps it does happen above as below, if the entire octave (as Ra means it) fails then maybe they need to repeat the whole thing! :smiley:

I like how they talk about hell, that it just means a place where people are extremely fearful. So all we have to do is release our fear!

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This is 1979 which is pre-Ra material

I think they are using octave as a description rather than in the precisely technical sense meant by Ra – there were times in the Ra material where Ra even said “octave” and then Don followed up and asked if they meant “suboctave” and they said yes they meant suboctave, but also that they don’t really distinguish them that way

So octave taking on a technical sense that meant higher than 7D and lower than 1D was probably something that kind of evolved, not something specifically calculated. They are pretty clear that they see the world divided into an infinity of octaves, each having an octave within it, implying that each octave is itself a suboctave of a greater octave. Just that they don’t have knowledge beyond this octave

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Just thought I’d share the quotes tied to octaves related to this topic:

81.16 Questioner: Ra states that it has knowledge of only this octave, but it seems that Ra has complete knowledge of this octave.

Can you tell me why this is?

Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, we do not have complete knowledge of this octave. There are portions of the seventh density which, although described to us by our teachers, remain mysterious. Secondly, we have experienced a great deal of the available refining catalyst of this octave, and our teachers have worked with us most carefully that we may be one with all, that in turn our eventual returning to the great allness of creation shall be complete.

81.17 Questioner: Then Ra has knowledge from the first beginnings of this octave through its present experience as, what I might call direct or experiential knowledge through communication with those space/times and time/spaces, but has not yet evolved to or penetrated the seventh level. Is this a roughly correct statement?

Ra: I am Ra. Yes.

81.18 Questioner: Why does Ra not have any knowledge of that which was prior to the beginning of this octave?

Ra: I am Ra. Let us compare octaves to islands. It may be that the inhabitants of an island are not alone upon a planetary sphere, but if an ocean-going vehicle in which one may survive has not been invented, true knowledge of other islands is possible only if an entity comes among the islanders and says, “I am from elsewhere.” This is a rough analogy. However, we have evidence of this sort, both of previous creation and creation to be, as we in the stream of space/time and time/space view these apparently non-simultaneous events.

I took this into consideration when posing this question. I felt it was an overlap of terms that were used to refer to the same thing, as there are many words in the English language that do this. Repeating an octave seems the opposite of expansive.

Yeah, it doesn’t seem like repeating the entire octave – as if you made it to the end or near the end and then had to start again – that doesn’t really line up with the rest of the material

I guess what you’re getting at is do those in the knot of fear have to start from scratch? I suppose anything is possible. Could they be so knotted in fear that they regress to 2nd density and then 1st density somehow?

Yet at the same time we are told that nothing is lost, nothing can be lost

If we graduate from this octave and then have to start it again? Doesn’t really make sense

After making my comment above about nothing ever being lost I read your other post from Q’uo/Aaron where they talk about how nothing is lost! Awesome!

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I would say they have mixed up density and octave.

This would really make no sense.

I am asking me if it really has such a big influence if an gasping thumb exists?

Some days before I discussed with someone about bellicosity.
My idea was that the main reason for bellicosity and wars are the importance of history and future.

You will conquer territory only to have more resources and space in the future.
Or you want to take revenge for events in the past.

Living your life in the now sees just what you need at this moment, unburdened by the past.
This way of considering should help to see the unworthy reasons for bellicosity.

What do you think?

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I was reading a channelling the other day actually that talked about this concept quite extensively that may offer some perspective.

Q’uo - November 18, 2001
The question that you ask this day is an interesting one, one in which there is indeed a great deal to say but not as concise and crystalline a pattern as in some matters. The causes of war within third density in one way are unified into one cause, and in another way there are threads of cause. It simply depends upon the level at which you wish to attack the question. We will start with the threads, we think, because perhaps that is more where each of your minds are at this time.

One thread, having to do with third density and war, is the nature of the physical vehicle which you as a species enjoy and which others upon other planets have somewhat closely approximated in the sense of the basic structure of the two arms, two legs, one head, one torso makeup of the body. When you gaze at the instincts of the stock from which your species developed you may see that your instincts, those deep seated predilections for response in certain situations, are those of a territorial animal. Your great apes occupy a certain area in which they are upon their home territory for hunting food and protecting their source of water. The nature of this species is such that for the most part entities remain within various small groupings, each with its own territory, and with each territory being allowed its own way in what this instrument would call a laissez faire structure, each group being independent from each other group, no attempt being made to work together in larger groups.

This is the instinct basis which feeds into the mind’s working, for a portion of the mind is involved with prioritizing messages from the body which have a tag which says, “Urgent.” Therefore, even though these instincts are unthinking they represent a substantial bias that prejudices third-density entities in the direction of what is perceived as their territory or their possession. If you will gaze upon the tangle of reasons surrounding your bellicose actions you will find that territorial considerations almost always play a significant role. This is the energy of red ray, of survival, being expressed. When the territory is threatened the territory [must] be defended. When other territory is seen as necessary and it must be gotten, then aggression is considered reasonable. This remains a substantial portion of the reason for war in third density.

Another thread of this tapestry of third-density situations and areas of conflict is the nature of the third-density mind. This third-density mind, without the benefit of the consciousness that is you as an eternal being, is a choice-maker mind. It is designed to make one choice after another. It assumes, as a way of working, that there is always a right choice and, therefore, sees the process of living as a sequence of choices. Faced with a situation, the third-density mind will attempt to solve the situation—not necessarily to appreciate it, to understand it, to analyze it, or to plumb its subtleties. The first mental reflex is to solve it, to make it go away. The tendency to see black and white, yes and no, feeds into that ability to be belligerent which is indeed a hallmark of your density. The very nature of the mind is such that it tends to suggest to the most rational thinker that decisions must be made, that plans must be made, that all must be chosen and then whipped into order along the lines of choice.

Another thread that moves into the war-making ability of humankind and of third-density in general is as the one known as Jim suggested: the challenge of working with groups. The great question in any group is “What is the character of that group?” A group shows its character as it chooses its leaders. Those who attempt to be leaders within large groups tend to have personality structures in which the use of aggression seems fair; the use of influence, just; the use of all advantages, necessary. The tendency therefore is for leadership not to be as idealistic as the spoken ideal philosophy that is given respect in polite company, while at the same time, as the one known as Jim pointed out, ignores those same ideals when it seems to be of some advantage.

All of these threads feed into the situation where entities, feeling threatened, respond to their insecurity by aggression. You may see the fight for territory; you may see the greed for advantage, influence and power. You may see the tendency to do something as opposed to resting and gathering for extended periods of time, that impatience of leadership, that impulsivity. And a final thread that we would mention is that tendency of the stronger to bully the weaker. And by this we mean to indicate not nations against nations but rather, as the one known as C pointed out, male against female, one kind of energy over against its dynamic opposite, instead of coming into cooperation with that dynamic opposite. We have found that in populations of third-density entities who have chosen to seek the face of the Creator in a feminine face, the values of the culture include far less impulsivity and far more kindness than in cultures dominated by a Creator who is seen as a powerful male figure. The tendency to find positions of power held by male entities, the tendency of the very workings of the law and certainly the traditional underpinnings of your cultures upon your Earth at this time favor the values of strength, power, and force—the virtues of a strong male figure.

The very roots of your thinking, shall we say, from childhood have been saturated with testosterone-rich heroic deeds. This entity has a fondness for reading, and we find in this entity’s mind many, many a story which involves the waving of the sword, the brandishing of the firearm, the assumption that weaponry and armament are natural concomitants of policy. And indeed we do not disparage war in and of itself. It is part of the almost inevitable confusion of third density. We do not suggest strict ways of thinking about conflict, for a case can be made for war as a game, as an excellent game, rich in glory and honor. Like many other things which from a wider point of view seem insane, going to war is a part of the expression of third density as most third-density planets experience the density.

Beyond all these reasons, the heart of war and the heart of the reason for war in third density is the nature of love. All things that you experience come to you as distortions of love. There is no other substance but love from which to draw life. So all of life, including murder, pillage, and rape is act after act of love: love distorted, love blocked, love asked to go where it would not go. Nevertheless, no matter how many times the stock seems to be hybridized and ruined, the basic root stock of all experience is love. Third density is a very focused, very intense density, the density of choice. The choice is not between love and hate. The choice is between two ways of seeking love: loving others as a way of choosing to love, or loving the self as a way of choosing to love.

Needless to say, the service-to-others path is not a war-like path. It is allegedly service-to-self entities that would move themselves into fighting against their own kind. And yet the struggle to see clearly the roots of love within the self is a tremendous one. As the one known as Jim has said, it is not that anyone knows not how to love. There are many examples of unconditional love. There are very simple words to indicate the qualities of forgiveness, compassion and love. However, all of these words are only within the mind until an energetic attempt begins to be made to translate these ideals into that which can be manifested in physical life. So the question becomes, “What is each seeker’s response to the call of love?” And this is not a simple thing.

It is easy for us to ask each to go into meditation each day and seek the silence. The answers are there within the silence, not within our words. However, when it comes to attempting to step into your shoes as third-density entities we find that we are simply glad that each of you has the energy and the will for this great task of seeing the truth amidst the confusion. Love calls powerfully and pulls each entity forward. Third density is carefully designed to pull entities forward according to their desires and their thirst. The challenge of selfhood is to find out what you truly desire. What shall you desire? Truth? Love? Peace? Where is the substance to those words? Where is the reality beneath your feet? What is your understanding of your journey? If you understand that you are here to pursue spiritual evolution, that you are here to answer the call of love, then you will want to shape your questions to the infinite Creator in such a way that you are seeking your own essence and the essence of Love itself.

It is thought by some that if people would stop shooting at each other that we would have peace. And yet we say to you that it is not as simple as that. For as the one known as C said, if one stops doing that, then what does one do instead? At least aggression against a certain and very specific nation-state or group of entities is a limited and achievable battle and at the end of it one can say such and such has been achieved, and now there is peace. And yet we say to you, like love itself, peace is beyond all condition. Peace does not originate within conditions. Peace is a quality that is waiting for each third-density entity to take it and claim it as his own, his very own, a wonderful, blessed possession. Yet how many entities truly seek the peace within their own hearts which comes from stopping the striving and encouraging the resting in what is? How many entities truly embrace peace if peace involves releasing many other things which are dear?

The one known as Jesus answered the man who said, “I follow all of the commandments. What else shall I do to enter the kingdom of heaven?” by suggesting that he sell all that he had and give the money that he received to the poor. And the young man went away very unhappy because he did not wish to do this, even if it meant entering the kingdom of heaven. Pride, vanity, the need to be better than someone else: all of these are energies within the human heart that are natural to the instinctual, second-density body and third-density brain. Yet you as a consciousness, as an eternal being, are resting within these biases for an incarnational experience in which you are attempting to follow the inexorable pressure of seeking for the truth, and your question each day to yourself is always the same. “Where in this moment is the love? Where in this moment is the Creator?”

So we do not suggest that it is an evil thing to go to war in and of itself. We do suggest that it is not a productive way to seek spiritually compared to the ways of peace. Yet in many ways your third density will express conflict because that is the basic nature of people who see themselves as separate from and over against others. This is a part of the catalyst of third density. It is a part of the hard lessons of love. And indeed it does move through not just third density but also to some extent, fourth density. For there are those within fourth density who choose to continue as children of light or as children of darkness and continue the clash of polarities. As fourth density wears on, this great love of being a warrior begins to evaporate, as love is better learned.

Each has had crystalline, shining moments in his life, when love has become real, not just a word, not just a concept, but amazingly, vividly, powerfully real. Think about those times and the gift that those times have given you. Allow the consciousness that filled you at those moments to come back to you, just to remember how it feels.

We encourage each to ponder deeply her own essence and the nature of her own heart. The heart of one entity and the heart of the world upon which you live are the microcosm and the macrocosm of the same thing. And actually each of you is of an higher order than the world itself. As you choose to seek, to think and to act, so shall the reflections manifest in the macrocosm that is your globe. Work with the essence of self to find ways to choose not to promote conflict, ways to express the truths that do not do damage to those who think differently. But above all, seek that Presence within that is as the ray of light that is a fuller light, a light that blesses the darkness, a light that is not afraid. Open the self to that gentle, lambent flame that is the presence of the infinite Creator. Let that light take up and enlarge its home within your heart. As you seek the ways of peace within yourself, as you find ways to solve conflict within yourself, you are learning a little bit more for the planetary mind.

There is a fairly quickly growing group of those who are attempting to speak peace upon your planet, not in ways of public policy, but in ways of working within to become beings of peace. We see this body of energy enlarging upon your planet, and we feel very hopeful that, against all of the apparent news to the contrary in your Earth world, the lessons of love are more and more being seen, sometimes for the first time. Entities are awakening and doing some of this inner choosing of essence that we suggest. As more individual lives are transformed, so, we believe, shall your planet be transformed.

We would encourage each not to take to heart the appearance of things. It is said in your holy works that there will be wars and rumors of wars. There will be this, and there will be that, but the time is not yet. And we say to you that we believe this to be true. The true war for each of you is the struggle that the one known as Jim called the jihad, the internal struggle of the pilgrim to discipline the earthly self in order to make of the earthly self a vessel for the spirit within. In this jihad, in this holy conflict, your choices are not clear, and yet there is always a light that shines from within. And so we ask you simply to seek that light, to seek the face of love, and when you see that sun shine radiantly that is love, to learn from it and to offer yourself to it. For you, too, can be an agent of love within the confusion. You, too, can be a part of the eventual peace upon planet Earth. It begins with each individual seeker seeking the ideals within herself that she hopes to see in the world.

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Thank you.

This basic property is the same like in the second density, but with less brain and planning.
The territorial behaviour is stimulated by the construct of states on earth, which seem to be always in competition and are out for conquest.

This can really be observed in most people’s actions.
Nearly no one bothers or takes the time to analyze where the causes of an event are, or to analyze the catalyst.

So it is an really easy play for Orion to initiate belliciosity and wars.

Here we can read why the confederation sees this condition as “normal” and therefore it is natural when something porcelain breaks, even if it is a planet.

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